quote: Original post by sunandshadow
Basically IMHO the western genre is obsolete.

Wow !!! Hold on there sunny, I think that''s a bit harsh. I mean, I am not a fan of western. In fact, I gave up the genre most completely the day I found out how much of a lame remake the _Magnificent Seven_ really (I have a *visceral* hatred for remakes... which by the way might explain my reluctance towards fan fic, I think ) It might look like a good movie, but once you have seen the original (_Seven Samurai_) and noticed how much has been taken *exactly* "as is" (compare the intro scene of the "kentjutsu master" and its equivalent "knife man" : f*cking ridiculous if you ask me) and transposed in the western period.
But then again, I am sure the genre in and of itself can still be used. Look at _Last of the mohicans_ (or is it Mohawks in English ?), _Dance with Wolves_ (does it qualify ?), _Unforgiven_ (you gotta love Clint Eastwood).

A genre is just an excuse to use and tell a story. That''s the one thing I find brilliant about a lot of japanese RPG : the setting itself is a big mix of various genre/periods, but it doesnt really matter, it''s only there to serve as a *backgroud*, something that is there to enhance the foreground, an artistic tool in the palette of the storyteller. It''s probably what shocks a lot of westerners when they first play a game a la Final Fantasy with a medieval/sci-fi background, or an anime like Escaflowne with its ubercool Mechas with cloaking device and flying ships in a medieval world where damzel are still in need of a servant knight to rescue them and heir to the throne have to fight to take what is rightfully theirs.

Anyway, my point is, don''t diss a genre like that, you would only be closing a door, turning your back to a resource that only ask for an imaginative author to be renewed to our times.
Look at _Rage, the Wild West_ for an interpretation of western (playing werewolves and other wereanimals in the Wild West), or _DeadLands_ (IIRC), a slightly twisted version of the Wild West, with zombies (these are two P&P roleplaying games).

Personally, I think the Steampunk genre is quite promising. Wild Wild West is/was only the tip of the iceberg, but there is much more to be done (look at _Castle Falkenstein_ for instance).

anyway... maybe just a bit more of a reason would have been nice ? Why do you think it''s "obsolete" ?

quote: Original post by sunandshadow
I might consider writing a western/fantasy hybrid, but I''m just not interested in writing a pure western.

I can see why that would be interesting.
But maybe consider the alternative : a real western, without the fantasy element. I am sure there must be something to be done with all the cliches that have established themselves across the year, turn their on their head and twist them in something new.
Or maybe an uchrony like the universe developed by O.S.Card in the Alvin Maker saga (your average XVIIIth century America, except that the old wife''s magick really works).

quote: Original post by sunandshadow
OTOH... the western genre would probably make for excellent horror/suspense adventure games, train-empire building strategy sims, comedy adventure games, and MMORPGS.

Mmmh, yeah, *any* setting could be used, for that matter The question is what has the western genre that would make it unique ?

Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !

quote: Original post by Impossible
I think we have different opinions on what is mass market, adventuredesign. Remember I also said mass market, not necessarily an intergral part of american or world culture, and you can argue that a few games have even reached that level to some extent. In my opinion (and I believe this is the meaning of the term) "mass market" means it appeals to a lot of people, even though those people could fit one particular demographic. There isn''t a single thing (besides maybe air and water) that everyone in the whole world consumes or enjoys.

>Your were right, you did say that, and after some research I agree with you. Mass market by definition, unless my 5th year marketing management textbook from Harvard is entirely in error, doesn''t even make the distinction. It simply states a single product is produced, is sold using a single marketing approach to the whole market or "to all who can be persuaded to buy it."

So, really, what we have been labeling as the mass market game all along is not what I have been discussing. The game mass market is the game market, and thus many games have indeed become mass market games. What I have been trying to advocate was the mass culture game (for a shot at a redefining term), and not a mass market game. So, everybody''s reference to the mythical mass market game in all the game design books has been an employment of the wrong term. Maybe multiple market game would be a better way to describe it. Since we are redefining the paradigm correctly, a little help with the new definition of a game that reaches more people than a mass market game would be welcome.

As for games (especially a single game) becoming like the NFL or NBA, it probably won''t happen, simply because games are more like movies or music.

>Now, but not in time.

You have certain development houses and franchises that become very popular, but you won''t have one particular game that lots of people are playing all the time forever, not without some nostalgia involved that is.

>What a great plug for the western, perhaps the most nostalgic ere of American History. It''s representations culturally in film, book and stage vastly outnumber other American nostalgia such as the revolutionary or civil war eras.

This is how things work with music, television, books, movies and games and almost any other creative medium you can think of (visual art, comics, etc.)

>Except when they are so singularly seminal they become a cultural phonomenon in practice, and are no longer pieces of entertainment, but actual cultural segments. Star Trek, Star Wars and The Matrix are good examples. They influenced fashion, shopping, many other areas that made them more than just a piece of entertainment.

I have to also say that I''m feeling kind''ve fortunate in that a lot of people think (even peers) games are going to remain in the same league as other creative mediums. I believe they will eventually become a subset of this one; not in the sense that they will absorb them, each will have it''s own distinction still, but this medium will combine them all into a new form on entertainment (much as it has done to date) separating and raising the bar of what level of entertainment experience a creative medium can produce. Nobody''s really written it yet, that''s why it''s not here now. But it''s coming.

quote: Original post by ahw
The question is what has the western genre that would make it unique ?

The Western genre has a particular mix of culture and props that define what a Western is: the frontier, gold, showdowns, hangings, horses, railways, rugged untamed wilderness, lawlessnes, gambling saloons, Indian/Europeans conflicts, etc.

Additionally, the Western offers a set of roles which are semi unique to the genre: prospectors, bank robbers, sheriffs, mining bosses, cowboys, gunslingers, mountain men...

quote: Original post by bishop_pass
The Western genre has a particular mix of culture and props that define what a Western is: the frontier, gold, showdowns, hangings, horses, railways, rugged untamed wilderness, lawlessnes, gambling saloons, Indian/Europeans conflicts, etc.

Additionally, the Western offers a set of roles which are semi unique to the genre: prospectors, bank robbers, sheriffs, mining bosses, cowboys, gunslingers, mountain men...

Personally, I think Western is one of the "classic" backgrounds of P&P RPG because it has what most RPG want to give to the player : general freedom, opportunities to make a name for yourself, lands to explore, inhabitants to discover (or slaughter, depending on your players), wealth to acquire, and the general mayhem and blurry laws that are inherent to a place where Order and Law have yet to be established (and if they are established by *you*, that's even better).

Beyond that, Colts and Stetson, horses and whiskey, gold nuggets and Apaches, Wendigo and coyote are not so different from your average double handed sword and horned helmet, horses and ale, gold coins and dwarves, dragon and wolves... or is it ?

You are painting a picture with a different palette, but it's still the same kind of picture, really. And don't get me wrong : that's precisely why I think it's a *very* good background to use. I would equally recommend a XVth century Conquistadors setting, for the exact same reasons, think about it !

Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !

[edited by - ahw on December 27, 2002 3:57:56 PM]

quote: Original post by ahw You are painting a picture with a different palette, but it''s still the same kind of picture, really. And don''t get me wrong : that''s precisely why I think it''s a *very* good background to use. I would equally recommend a XVth century Conquistadors setting, for the exact same reasons, think about it !

Sort of, yes and no. Themes interchange, and game mechanics have parallels. But a Western movie is not a Knight in Armor movie. A picture on a wall of an Apache on a horse is not a picture on a wall of a Knight jousting.

In other words, the feel is different, and depending on one''s mood or general interests, one can seem great, and the other not so great, or both can seem great, or neither can seem great.