quote: Original post by Arche@on
So armors bring protection, they are not for dodging bullets.

Not true. Mobility is a MASSIVE factor in success rate. Medieval knights in plate armor is a big example. They were winched up in the air and sat down on a horse. If they fell off, they couldn''t get up. Why? The armor was restrictive. Many people in plate armor didn''t die of direct wounds, they died of not being able to get outta the armor before the wound was inflicted. Case in point: You club someone in plate armor. The armor would be dented. Enough dents could hinder mobility and perhaps even effect some sort of paralasis to the knight since they oft could not bend joints after they were struck. Don''t try to contest me on this, my girlfriend is a minor in medieval studies and i get to hear ALL about it
Power armor was powered to help mobility. Part of your AC in D&D was a bonus for dexterity. The more you could move naturally, the harder it is to hit you. However, once hit.. the armor''s rating actually took effect when determining damage to you in Fallout. The AC was the mere chance of you getting hurt.. be it because you dodged or because your armor absorbed the impact.
Police get broken ribs all the time from the vests. They also get whelts from hell. Why? the kevlar doesn''t stop the physical impact of the bullet.. it merely spreads the impact over a larger area, which in turn lessens the impact wound. The bullet itself is caught in the kevlar due to the nature of kevlar to have a high tensile strength. Many times a bullet could still go through the kevlar, but hits the iron plate protecting the mid-chest area. This is critical for close-range shots, as they can still pierce kevlar. I watched a discovery channel special on it Kevlar spreads the impact over a large area and blunts the tip of the bullet which helps stop it''s movement through the vest. All of the velocity impact IS absorbed by the body and it DOES hurt like hell. I''ve seen several shows of Cops where they get shot in the vest and swear they''re dead before they realize they''re still alive. It''s a freaking miracle these vests exist and can do what they do.. but they still can''t lessen the impact any.. merely stop the projectile and spread the impact over a greater area.
With this kind of solution, people live.. but it still hurts in some way. Unless you dodge a bullet, you''re going to get some pain. Many games have an unclear method for how to determine hit vs miss and damage vs armor penetration. D&D is one of these. Either the armor takes ALL the damage, or none of it. So a more advanced system of looking at armor coverage and whatnot is needed in games in my opinion. But then again, i''m an arsenal expert I just sort of "see" physics in action whenever i think about things like this. I know WHY things work the way the do in these respects.. it''s some sorta talent i have Which is why i''m so crazed about cars.. i can literally see them blasting through the air and aerodynamics taking effect on them F1 racing RULES!

The point about RPG games and adventure aspects is lost to me. There''s no real sense of what an RPG is, as Landfish has exposed.. so it''s a moot point. What exactly is an RPG? I''d like to ask some magazines that.. since they constantly give out "RPG of the year" awards. Harvest moon is an RPG. LOL!

J

I though we were talking about reality. You took good example from MBT(Main Battle Tank, currently M1Ax Abrams). See, noone is faster than bullet, that mobility thing can help with melee blows from clubs and stuff, but when someone shoots you and you and you are up, there is no way to dodge that if it''s hitting.

A bullet from Steyer M9(Average 9mm pistol with 9mm Luger)comes 317m/s which compared to humans reaction time(average 0.7s, not counting the time which it takes you to dodge). OK now someone shoots me with this gun while I''m looting Software store at Planet Hardware, he is 317 meters away from me, apparently he rolls natural 20(Ehheheh, Ad&d) and hits, the bullet leaves me 0.3 seconds to dodge which is impossible!

The bullet either goes near by or then it goes down to your chest and bents''n''cracs every rib you got. See, when someone shoots you with horizontal whip cannon, you hear nice sound when it passes by and in army they teach that when you hear sound you gotta duck&cover, which is wrong, well not exactly because you can suspect that whoever wants to hurt you wants to kill you and there are 100 bullets coming right behind the bullet you just heard.

And second thing is that then Leather Jacket should have better AC than Combat Armor, because combat armor is way much heavier and clumsier. (I doubt that even high tech mobilized armor is better than anything)

In futuristic games armors shouldn''t add evading/dodging bonus, because it''s not from the armor if you get hit, It''s from your skills. I like the way it''s in Jagged Alliance 2.

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>i''m an arsenal expert
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Yeah I don''t doub that you are, but why didn''t you take such a simple thing that reactions. If you have seen someone evading a bullet in anyother place than in James Bond please tell me, That guy has extremely well trained reactions.

We ain''t living in the Matrix, so you can''t dodge this.
I think I proofed well enough why armors can''t proviede any dodging abilites, unless they are supereme alien armors.


Time comes, time goes and I only am.

The armor doesn''t provide any more mobility, it''s all a matter of how resrictive it is.. or unrestrictive Sorry if i didn''t convey that properly, i merely meant to say that games tend to lump dodging and armor damage absorption into a single category, which is.. of course.. wrong

As for reaction times.. that''s got to be based on the player''s stats. Uhmm.. what was that stupid movie.. Remo something.. lol. He was trained by a "zen master" to dodge bullets. he could supposedly ''hear'' when someone was pulling the trigger and thus learned to evade them. It''s an instinctual response though, you couldn''t control it properly.. if you had to THINK at all, then you''re dead with a bullet.

Armor improving mobility doesn''t need to be alien, it needs to be magical If you think about it, a kid with a disease preventing him from walking would benefit from some kinda power armor which could help him move. This is the only instance in which power armor or something like it IMPROVES motion. Say if you break a leg, having the power armor might mean you could keep going, because you need not move the leg in order to move the suit. I could think up reasons like that all day The point is, the don''t hinder motion.

Another fault is that many games don''t account for the fact that the armor is BIGGER than you are. It doesn''t increase the size of your body any, which would also determine if you got hit. I mean, if you dodge and get out of the way normally, adding an extra inch might mean the difference.

As for your Matrix comment.. why not? The game is a fantasy world.. do with it as you will! If your game features some kind of mentalist or something which is capable of slowing down time, then it''s acceptable. Look at Interview with a Vampire if you need an example of people moving faster than normal elsewhere in the realm of fantasy! I believe that is all..

J

I think that what would improve RPG''s is if there were fewer battles, but the battles were larger, more complicated, and had more ''story value''.

Even in action films (which are mostly about battles) there are only a few battles, but they have signifiant impacts on the plot line. Think how boring a film or story would be if it was 90% random battles against oponents that basically amounted to cannon foder.

Of course that gets you into the issue of non-combat oriented experience systems to allow character growth...