quote:
"The unexamined life is not worth living."
-Socrates

"And over-examination causes people to spend 8 hours per day on a game design message board."
-Nazrix

Edited by - Nazrix on June 30, 2000 11:52:06 AM

Naz: Touche.

Kylotan: Unless I''m mistaken, Archetypal Theme is in GDNet''s dictionary. So we can use it all we want! Yay!

Littlemikey: That''s a tough post, man. Understanding archetypal themes takes a small leap of faith, you need to believe some Jungian psychology, which I myself have yet to trust entirely. But, it seems to be very true, at least in literary media.

Archetypal themes are deeply ingrained in our psyche, wither from childhood influences or from something more universal. Doesn''t matter. The Gallant Knight continues to affect our society centuries after Knights ceased to be what we still percieve them as. In fact, even when there were traditional knights, few could ever be discribed as "gallant".

The trickster is percieved by cultures worldwide to be a mischevious entity. This makes sense, But for some reason, cultures are know to percieve the trickster as incredibly wise and mysteriously benevolent. Like it or not, this means something when it comes to storytelling.

Cliches, on the other hand, are techniques that have by definition, lost their power. Just witnessing a cliche makes the viewer realize he is trying to be manipulated. This is just bad. Unless you carry it through by breaking that cliche, you''ve made something cheesy.

"The unexamined life is not worth living."
-Socrates

That last one was mine...

The problem with using the word "cliche" in this conversation is that normally (if not always) it comes with a negative connotation. Taking it by its dictionary definition, I think cliches are bad and should be avoided (as I voiced in my article, "Better Plots" here at GameDev).

Since the word "cliche" itself has recently become a game design buzz-word, the line between that and simply "tried-and-true" has been smudged beyond recognition. An element of gameplay can be done numerous times and still be good--this is tried-and-true. However, if used to much (or if it was weak to begin with, IMO) it is cliche.

For instance: Galant prince out to save beautiful princess from evil dragon. This is cliche. We''ve seen it a thousand times, and it no longer evokes any sort of excitement or intrigue. It is cliche.

However, stats, experience levels, turn-based combat, etc are NOT cliche (always). Sure, they''ve been done a lot, but that doesn''t mean they are no longer FUN. The use of experience levels, for instance, can still be a very powerful driving force in a game nowadays, even though it''s been around for so long. It is a tried-and-true element, but is not cliche (yet).

Though generally I, as a game designer, try to stray from ANYTHING that is either tried-and-true OR cliche, I feel that there is nothing wrong with using the former--in fact sometimes it''s for the best. Why come up with a whole new system when you''re trying to market your game to people who love the old system?

My $.02
I''m looking forward to some opposition (Landfish, maybe? )

------------------------------
Changing the face of adventure gaming...
Atypical Interactive

Sorry, AtypicalAlex, I can''t offer any opposition. I agree wholeheartedly.

"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom." --William Blake

Sorry aytp. I can''t oppose that, only redirect it. There has GOT to be a better EXISTING word for these "tried and true" design elements. Maybe even one in a negative connotation, just for me! You''re right, there is a difference. Cliches are derived from contrived thinking, ego, and ignorance. Design elemnts only go awry if used without careful forethought.

So comb the dictionarys, boys! We must find this word!

======
"The unexamined life is not worth living."
-Socrates

"Question everything. Especially Landfish."
-Matt