🎉 Celebrating 25 Years of GameDev.net! 🎉
Not many can claim 25 years on the Internet! Join us in celebrating this milestone. Learn more about our history, and thank you for being a part of our community!
Level 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
I haven''t played the Nethack / Angband / Rogue-likes yet, but I''m wondering if I can get some insight from someone who has: I hear these games have a *TON* of levels. There''s only so many ways you can vary a level, so I''m guessing that after awhile the maps must repeat somewhat.
So my question is this: What keeps a person playing, even in a repetitive environment? Is the gameplay so compelling that the environment stops mattering?
Thx for any info.
--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...
I played ADOM, and I was quite addicted for a while (a couple of weeks...I know it''s not long but I was pretty into it). The levels were randomly generated, and thus, repetetive. I think it was the options. They did give you quite a few options, and those options did model reality rather well. Like ranged attacks were very beneficial in combat. It was fairly free as far as how you did quests I think. I think a lot of it was the exploration expect you spoke of before mostly.I''m definitely not an expert on them though.
"NPC's are people too!" --dwarfsoft
"`Nazrix is cool.' --Nazrix" --Darkmage
"NPC's are people too!" --dwarfsoft
"`Nazrix is cool.' --Nazrix" --Darkmage
ADOM (I played it for some time too) has the special property that if you die then you really die and must start over. You cannot revert to the last saved game.
This makes the game very intense but it also adds the need for making the game different every time you play it because otherwise it will get even more repititive than randomly generated dungeons are.
Jacob Marner
This makes the game very intense but it also adds the need for making the game different every time you play it because otherwise it will get even more repititive than randomly generated dungeons are.
Jacob Marner
quote: Original post by felonius
ADOM (I played it for some time too) has the special property that if you die then you really die and must start over. You cannot revert to the last saved game.
Jacob Marner
Well, you can, but you have to cheat and make a copy of the saved game and put it into another directory
I know that you could cheat this way. I must admit that I did a few times myself but I stopped doing it. It ruined all the fun - and the important thing is that you weren''t supposed to do so. As you said yourself - it''s cheating. It is just as bad when you type in a invulnarability code in Doom. It becomes easier - but it does NOT become more fun. So I reverted to playing ADOM as it was intended to.
Jacob Marner
Jacob Marner
Here are my thoughts (using Nethack as an example):
1) like felonius said: replay value would be 0 without generated levels and the nature of rogue-like games is to really die when you die. It makes the game already very interesting.
2) if the levels were really designed, they probably wouldn''t be that much better. Think about it, could you really draw anything but maze-like dungeons in a game like Nethack?
3) there are some hand-drawn castles and towns, that are really cool to find after you''ve been vandering in the mazes.
4) so many items to use, so many monsters. You''ll never get bored.
5) secret places, easter eggs
6) you have a target anyway, and it''s the 50th floor. So you know when you''re near the end. That gives some motivation, too.
7) the game is hard and the monsters attack all the time. You really don''t pay that much attention to the level design. And you encounter new enemies on your way down.
1) like felonius said: replay value would be 0 without generated levels and the nature of rogue-like games is to really die when you die. It makes the game already very interesting.
2) if the levels were really designed, they probably wouldn''t be that much better. Think about it, could you really draw anything but maze-like dungeons in a game like Nethack?
3) there are some hand-drawn castles and towns, that are really cool to find after you''ve been vandering in the mazes.
4) so many items to use, so many monsters. You''ll never get bored.
5) secret places, easter eggs
6) you have a target anyway, and it''s the 50th floor. So you know when you''re near the end. That gives some motivation, too.
7) the game is hard and the monsters attack all the time. You really don''t pay that much attention to the level design. And you encounter new enemies on your way down.
If you wanna give ONE link about Roguelike game, that would be the one.
It''s up to date, with some excellent development articles, and there are links to all the most famous games of the genre.
Personally, I still like ADOM very much (for some strange reason).
Some thoughts to answer :
Don''t underestimate the power of players'' imagination. That''s why MUDs are still so damn popular ! As well, don''t underestimate the effectiveness of simple graphics; you can''t imagine what you can do with 16 colors and 256 characters, that''s much more than you need to do some cool stuff I used to male gfx for games on a HP48G, and I can tell you it rocked big time (probably still have some pics somewhere on my HD, would have to find them )
Wavinator : those games have indeed, a *TON* of levels, much more than you''ll ever need in fact. The maps *ARE* repetitive, what isn''t is the presence of monsters, the constant appearance (in ADOM) of thematic levels, pre desiged levels, etc.
I think what make people (me included) play it so much is the constant reward process... as long as you don''t die, you are basically winning, a bit like in Tetris. And you can really go on forever, almost. The envionment, most of the time, is a nicely designed excuse to push you forward.
Personally I never really played Nethack because of the lack of environment, but on the other hand I am totally addicted to ADOM. You would look at them and they "WTF!? what is the difference ?" and I couldn''t tell you, I think it has something to do with suspension of disbelief. ADOM gives you enough so that you feel playing in a world, with forests, caves, dungeons, etc. While nethack is more like a simple dungeon, period. And it kindof sucks ... and it suck even more whn you know that Diablo is nothing more than a nethack with a cool graphic layer on top. A village level on the surface, and levels that go deeper and deeper ??? where did I play that before ? Now when you know that Nethack has been developed and maintained for the last *FIFTEEN* years ... I ask you, why would you play Diablo ?
Anyway ... youpla :-P
It''s up to date, with some excellent development articles, and there are links to all the most famous games of the genre.
Personally, I still like ADOM very much (for some strange reason).
Some thoughts to answer :
Don''t underestimate the power of players'' imagination. That''s why MUDs are still so damn popular ! As well, don''t underestimate the effectiveness of simple graphics; you can''t imagine what you can do with 16 colors and 256 characters, that''s much more than you need to do some cool stuff
I used to male gfx for games on a HP48G, and I can tell you it rocked big time (probably still have some pics somewhere on my HD, would have to find them )Wavinator : those games have indeed, a *TON* of levels, much more than you''ll ever need in fact. The maps *ARE* repetitive, what isn''t is the presence of monsters, the constant appearance (in ADOM) of thematic levels, pre desiged levels, etc.
I think what make people (me included) play it so much is the constant reward process... as long as you don''t die, you are basically winning, a bit like in Tetris. And you can really go on forever, almost. The envionment, most of the time, is a nicely designed excuse to push you forward.
Personally I never really played Nethack because of the lack of environment, but on the other hand I am totally addicted to ADOM. You would look at them and they "WTF!? what is the difference ?" and I couldn''t tell you, I think it has something to do with suspension of disbelief. ADOM gives you enough so that you feel playing in a world, with forests, caves, dungeons, etc. While nethack is more like a simple dungeon, period. And it kindof sucks ... and it suck even more whn you know that Diablo is nothing more than a nethack with a cool graphic layer on top. A village level on the surface, and levels that go deeper and deeper ??? where did I play that before ? Now when you know that Nethack has been developed and maintained for the last *FIFTEEN* years ... I ask you, why would you play Diablo ?
Anyway ... youpla :-P
I think the idea of havinga billion levels is so you can keep going back to the game. Even better is if the game is a multiplayer experience, cause that way all it does is provide a slightly different environment for a a group of sarcastiv friends to play around in for a while. Add in alcohol to the mix and it can be endless fun (well, it would be endless if I didn''t keep passing out after 48 hours+)
ahw,
The only thing really different is that Diablo is real-time. ADOM is in a way cooler because they actually seemed to have more involved quests. Plus, you could go into different dungeons.
The only thing really different is that Diablo is real-time. ADOM is in a way cooler because they actually seemed to have more involved quests. Plus, you could go into different dungeons.
This topic is closed to new replies.
Advertisement
Popular Topics
Advertisement
