Nope, you still don''t get it.
How can you build a stereotype if you start bombarding the viewer/player with exceptions immediately? You CAN''T!
That''s why at first all the races will seem stereotypical, and you''ll form an idea of their culture, and THEN you will see some exceptions pop up here and there, so you can say "hey, this Watchamacallit is really different from the others."
Now, in places where it''s hard to spend a lot of time building up the stereotype, you have to go back to linking it with existing stereotypes, such as the world''s stereotypical views of Germans, Americans, etc. etc.
[ps: I''m in a really bad mood today, so I apologise in advance for any abrasiveness ]
People might not remember what you said, or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
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"Klingonness" (Or "Orcishness," if you prefer)
Funny, I always saw the Klingons as an interesting and very well balanced mix between cold war Russia and feudal Japan.
Ok, I have read through all of the avaiable posting so far, and all of you have a part of the whole. And some of you are probibly not noticing that you are agreeing with each other, so I will try to put it all together.
Since you all seem to be tossing Star Wars & Star Trek around I will use them for my discussion.
Star Trek, written by the late Gene Rodenbery, was writen in the middle to late 60''s. This was a time of great racial & social differences. This was also a time of war and hostilites. The Klingons were addmitedly a portrail of the Russians with a couplign of Fudal Japan Honor structure (addmited by Rodenberry himself some years ago). But as a writer he needed to find a way to relate this unknown to viewers watching their TV''s. To give them something to relate to. And if you look at he main characters of the show itself, not even its alines, there were many thick sterotypes. Kirk, the headstrong, hot blooded, brash, young american who thinks he can do anything. Sulu, the Asian pilot, who in one episode they showed affinity to martial arts when bridge members were going mad. MaCoy, the older, patient southern doctor. Uhura, the black female communications officer/singer. Scotty (Sterotypical Scottish name, that even in a way makes fun of the people) the sterotypical enginer. Chekov, the weapons expert with a thick russian expert who continually said that his people invented, and created everything, making fun of how the Russians during some time periods educated their people to believe such things. Star Trek was founded on the platform of racial differences and sterotypes, with that said, look where it is today. 9 movies, 30 years of off/on TV shows. Because people who sat down to watch the show, immediatly recognized the sterotypes, and could, in there own way relate to the characters. Even Spock, The unemotional highly advanced above humans, with mental and psionic powers fits some sterotypes about aliens.
Once a writer uses this technique to build out a standard, they then can break this standard as a plot point to increase intrest. Star Trek NG is a perfect example of this with a Klingon rased by Humans that eventually molds his human upbringing with his Klingon background to create a hybrid set of belief''s. Personaly, Warf and the end of NG, and during DS9 was a much more interesting character than day one of NG. Data was an example of playing off of a possible sterotype of Artifical Intelligence. Also he is an example of the computer/information age effecting the writing.
I also would like to point out that in the original movie, there were tons of sterotypes used. The empire was a sterotypical Nazi regime down the the costumes, they were the master race. Droids could even been seen as a salve race. But these things are all left up to interpretaion. The fact that some of you are so passionate about these issues and that you recognize them in the movies, is just what the writer wanted. Now you have been sucked in, and they are making money off of your interest from tickets purchased, ratings genreated from watching the shows (and the advertisements) and the books you buy.
It is a proven fact the almost everything you look at in the media can in one way or another be viewed as a racial or societal sterotype, but then again, the breaking of those sterotypes when you least expect it is what ends up sucking you into the writers world.
Thanks for the ears, please feel free to attack/support/deny/agree to anything I have had to say, the discussion is what counts.
Since you all seem to be tossing Star Wars & Star Trek around I will use them for my discussion.
Star Trek, written by the late Gene Rodenbery, was writen in the middle to late 60''s. This was a time of great racial & social differences. This was also a time of war and hostilites. The Klingons were addmitedly a portrail of the Russians with a couplign of Fudal Japan Honor structure (addmited by Rodenberry himself some years ago). But as a writer he needed to find a way to relate this unknown to viewers watching their TV''s. To give them something to relate to. And if you look at he main characters of the show itself, not even its alines, there were many thick sterotypes. Kirk, the headstrong, hot blooded, brash, young american who thinks he can do anything. Sulu, the Asian pilot, who in one episode they showed affinity to martial arts when bridge members were going mad. MaCoy, the older, patient southern doctor. Uhura, the black female communications officer/singer. Scotty (Sterotypical Scottish name, that even in a way makes fun of the people) the sterotypical enginer. Chekov, the weapons expert with a thick russian expert who continually said that his people invented, and created everything, making fun of how the Russians during some time periods educated their people to believe such things. Star Trek was founded on the platform of racial differences and sterotypes, with that said, look where it is today. 9 movies, 30 years of off/on TV shows. Because people who sat down to watch the show, immediatly recognized the sterotypes, and could, in there own way relate to the characters. Even Spock, The unemotional highly advanced above humans, with mental and psionic powers fits some sterotypes about aliens.
Once a writer uses this technique to build out a standard, they then can break this standard as a plot point to increase intrest. Star Trek NG is a perfect example of this with a Klingon rased by Humans that eventually molds his human upbringing with his Klingon background to create a hybrid set of belief''s. Personaly, Warf and the end of NG, and during DS9 was a much more interesting character than day one of NG. Data was an example of playing off of a possible sterotype of Artifical Intelligence. Also he is an example of the computer/information age effecting the writing.
I also would like to point out that in the original movie, there were tons of sterotypes used. The empire was a sterotypical Nazi regime down the the costumes, they were the master race. Droids could even been seen as a salve race. But these things are all left up to interpretaion. The fact that some of you are so passionate about these issues and that you recognize them in the movies, is just what the writer wanted. Now you have been sucked in, and they are making money off of your interest from tickets purchased, ratings genreated from watching the shows (and the advertisements) and the books you buy.
It is a proven fact the almost everything you look at in the media can in one way or another be viewed as a racial or societal sterotype, but then again, the breaking of those sterotypes when you least expect it is what ends up sucking you into the writers world.
Thanks for the ears, please feel free to attack/support/deny/agree to anything I have had to say, the discussion is what counts.
Sorry, in that last section where I mention the Nazi, I was talking about the first Star Wars moive made (Episode 4 a New Hope)
I would also like to make a point on the Frenghi being a portrail of Jews, I always attributed them to a cross between the sterotypical Jew jokes and the Japanise due to the power & position that they have in the economic society.
I also apologise about my spelling, though I have an extensive college degree ... I have never truely mastered my own language, and at the time that I wrote this post did not have my savior the "spell checker" there to help me.
I would also like to make a point on the Frenghi being a portrail of Jews, I always attributed them to a cross between the sterotypical Jew jokes and the Japanise due to the power & position that they have in the economic society.
I also apologise about my spelling, though I have an extensive college degree ... I have never truely mastered my own language, and at the time that I wrote this post did not have my savior the "spell checker" there to help me.
I agree with MadKeithV.
People are reading into characters too much.
I really doubt most of the character types were created from preconcieved notions e.g. ''a gungan is like someone from Jamaica.''
When each actor tries to emulate a character in these situations, they are usually trying to do something they consider unique. In some peoples eyes they fail miserably.
In others eyes, esp. children, the actor helps take them for a ride.
It mainly boils down to personal perception. And this can change over time. As a kid, I didn''t see any sterotypes in Star Wars at all. It was just amazing space opera. But now, when I see storm troopers and thier officers, I see not Nazi''s but instead I see the English. Why? Because I work with a lot of British programmers and they have complained about this in the past. They changed my perception of the movie.
People are reading into characters too much.
I really doubt most of the character types were created from preconcieved notions e.g. ''a gungan is like someone from Jamaica.''
When each actor tries to emulate a character in these situations, they are usually trying to do something they consider unique. In some peoples eyes they fail miserably.
In others eyes, esp. children, the actor helps take them for a ride.
It mainly boils down to personal perception. And this can change over time. As a kid, I didn''t see any sterotypes in Star Wars at all. It was just amazing space opera. But now, when I see storm troopers and thier officers, I see not Nazi''s but instead I see the English. Why? Because I work with a lot of British programmers and they have complained about this in the past. They changed my perception of the movie.
The fact is, it''s just lazy. It''s a lot less work to create a single personality for an entire race than to go into each character''s psychology. It''s a cheap trick, and you don''t get much mileage out of it. (Later Star Trek NG abandoned this in favor of some cliché-breaking, something I deeply respect.)
It''s also easy to fall into a tribal mindset. It''s much less mentally straining to take a whole race and thing "They are my enemy" when they all have the same motivation. This leads to Goblin Genocide, where you are mindlessly slaying things and not considering each situation. You just think "goblin- bad" and start hacking. It''s racila determinism (or species determinism if you like...)
Since it''s kinda cheesy and it is only useful for a short amount of time, I call it bad writing. Personal judgement, okay?
It''s also easy to fall into a tribal mindset. It''s much less mentally straining to take a whole race and thing "They are my enemy" when they all have the same motivation. This leads to Goblin Genocide, where you are mindlessly slaying things and not considering each situation. You just think "goblin- bad" and start hacking. It''s racila determinism (or species determinism if you like...)
Since it''s kinda cheesy and it is only useful for a short amount of time, I call it bad writing. Personal judgement, okay?
OFf Topic
I read in Neon film magazine that the original Star Wars was to have East Asian characters. And this was proved when the unfortunate Phantom Menace came out.
I read in Neon film magazine that the original Star Wars was to have East Asian characters. And this was proved when the unfortunate Phantom Menace came out.
If you don''t rely on archetypes or stereotypes, how do you decisively show difference? How do you create a sense of "other" and make it stick?
For instance, how would you best present a society that has no moral qualms about violence and war? Or one for whom the concept of biological and recreational sex is unknown? Or one that is so millenia old and completely jaded and cynical?
It would seem that by showing a lot of variety, they''d all end up looking just like us (which isn''t what I want-- they''re supposed to be alien...)
--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...
For instance, how would you best present a society that has no moral qualms about violence and war? Or one for whom the concept of biological and recreational sex is unknown? Or one that is so millenia old and completely jaded and cynical?
It would seem that by showing a lot of variety, they''d all end up looking just like us (which isn''t what I want-- they''re supposed to be alien...)
--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...
Yeah, that''s the thing. With Star Trek...would the later Star Trek: TNG''s races seem to show as much variation if there was nothing to vary in comparison to.
If the earlier ones didn''t portray the sterotypes, then would the later ones show the variation since there would be nothing to compare to?
I really don''t think that Star Trek planned it that way though, but it seemed to me that the actors and the writers were sort of starting from the sterotypes at first and working their way up to more variation.
"'Nazrix is cool' -- Nazrix" --Darkmage
If the earlier ones didn''t portray the sterotypes, then would the later ones show the variation since there would be nothing to compare to?
I really don''t think that Star Trek planned it that way though, but it seemed to me that the actors and the writers were sort of starting from the sterotypes at first and working their way up to more variation.
"'Nazrix is cool' -- Nazrix" --Darkmage
Your target audience knows their reading: ABCDEF. They have been taught to read through stereotype media, so A = Kobold bad, B= Elf good, C= halfling neutral.
We can agree upon the language it exists, the other question is: good or bad? Landfish you clearly state it is bad. Thats your opinion, and then it''s up to you to change the language. Ever tried teaching a Korean arabic? The question stated was, how do you use stereotypes in game design, not opening the door for some farfetched startrek symbolism. Do you believe the smurfs are communists? The Klingons are what, the russians? Where do you get this stuff from, some lecture in university???
In my opinion, try and understand how your audience read signs and don''t be afraid to use those signs if they communicate the message you want to send. Talk to kings like a king, talk to a peasant like a peasant. If you are targeting communists use red to inspire loyalty, if you are targeting punkers use leather, if you are targeting french use french, if you are targeting landfish use something else.
We can agree upon the language it exists, the other question is: good or bad? Landfish you clearly state it is bad. Thats your opinion, and then it''s up to you to change the language. Ever tried teaching a Korean arabic? The question stated was, how do you use stereotypes in game design, not opening the door for some farfetched startrek symbolism. Do you believe the smurfs are communists? The Klingons are what, the russians? Where do you get this stuff from, some lecture in university???
In my opinion, try and understand how your audience read signs and don''t be afraid to use those signs if they communicate the message you want to send. Talk to kings like a king, talk to a peasant like a peasant. If you are targeting communists use red to inspire loyalty, if you are targeting punkers use leather, if you are targeting french use french, if you are targeting landfish use something else.
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