Quote: Then it becomes clear that this is hyperbole. Translating that to a game may be difficult unless you have good voice actors that can make a clear distinction between humorous exaggeration and the normal to serious side of the character. It loses its usefulness no matter how it is done though if its over used to the point where it becomes hard to see the real character under the joke scenes.

When you put it that way, it does seem more irritating. I certainly don't like the thought of a character where one side is this chowderhead personality that damages the reputation of an otherwise cool second form. However, the "mild-mannered/superhuman" relationship has a great rep. (Clark Kent/Superman) I guess it's just a question of how much the personalities of each side contrast.

In the interest of continuing the discussion of what's "cheesy", I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned deus ex machina. I find this to be sinful even in comedies with otherwise brilliant writing. Futurama was guilty of this on a few occasions. Even if it isn't that extreme, I have played games where story elements come in a little too quickly. They don't immediately solve the hero's problem, but they are solutions that you are suddenly expected to pursue. Sometimes the conversation before this happens goes something like this:

Hero: We seek the Jeweled Maiden Talisman!

Old Man: You must first find the Newt of Wisdom.

Hero: *gasp* I thought that was just a legend!

Old Man: No. *spins globe and points at the most distant continent* Go here.

Too many people get away with this. Please don't jerk me around! I feel if you must introduce a story element later, imply it first in some fashion. Make the player or view feel there's something missing, and you are about to find out what. Metroid gave me this feeling when there was a sudden increase in doors I couldn't open.

There's nothing wrong with overpowered characters, so long as they aren't one dimensional. Take for example Achilles from Homer's Iliad. He's clearly physically overpowered. He receives brilliant armour from the Goddess Athena and he drives back an entire army, turning the tide of the Trojan War.

This story has stood the test of some 2800 years.

Quote: In the interest of continuing the discussion of what's "cheesy", I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned deus ex machina.

I've mentioned it already:

Quote: I don't know anything about writing, but I've read good stories that are constructed from derivative fantasies and plot devices that are, on the surface, illogical.

I don't find deus ex machina to be innately sinful. It's used to great effect in some of our oldest and most celebrated literature.

Quote: I've mentioned it already:

Whuppz, Sorry!
EDIT: Wait, you did also say once should be concerned about a captivating story.
With DEM, it seems you'd have to be mighty careful. Also, I never heard of DEM be included in the construction of a story. When I originally learned about it, DEM was used to wrap up plays that had been interfered with.

Quote: I don't find deus ex machina to be innately sinful. It's used to great effect in some of our oldest and most celebrated literature.

I can't imagine enjoying it, but I am curious. Could you cite a reference? I'm sorry, but sudden revelation leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I don't want to be knocked back into the real world to process something, nor do I want to feel a story must end abruptly. It makes me feel the developers were impatient or did not plan effectively.

Quote: There's nothing wrong with overpowered characters, so long as they aren't one dimensional. Take for example Achilles from Homer's Iliad. He's clearly physically overpowered. He receives brilliant armour from the Goddess Athena and he drives back an entire army, turning the tide of the Trojan War.
This story has stood the test of some 2800 years.

The thing about these fables is that they aren't modern. We reminisce and maybe even dedicate games to them most likely out of some biblical sense of respect. I frown upon overpowered characters in new works given our higher standards on developers. With how networked we are, How can you blame us?

Picture if you made a movie today where you had a massively powerful mutant protagonist, and you made a tragic scene where he is killed by a bullet to the thumb. I don't think it would really fly.

Now, if you look at Chuck Norris and Duke Nukem, it seems to be fine to develop powerful characters for the sake of developing powerful characters. Sometimes one dimensional bloodshed can be entertaining. [disturbed]

Edits:

Quote: I can't imagine enjoying it, but I am curious. Could you cite a reference? I'm sorry, but sudden revelation leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I don't want to be knocked back into the real world to process something, nor do I want to feel a story must end abruptly. It makes me feel the developers were impatient or did not plan effectively.

Here's an example. It may not be a good one but who's going to argue with Shakespeare. This is from The Winter's Tale:

Quote: The play contains the most famous Shakespearean stage direction: Exit, pursued by a bear, describing the death of Antigonus.

The bear is never referenced prior to this occurrence. Of course you would have to read the play to appreciate its story.

Quote: The thing about these fables is that they aren't modern. We reminisce and maybe even dedicate games to them most likely out of some biblical sense of respect. I frown upon overpowered characters in new works given our higher standards on developers. With how networked we are, How can you blame us?

Picture if you made a movie today where you had a massively powerful mutant protagonist, and you made a tragic scene where he is killed by a bullet to the thumb. I don't think it would really fly.

These stories are still modern because they're still entertaining and important to us. Hollywood remakes old stories all the time.

Quote: Now, if you look at Chuck Norris and Duke Nukem, it seems to be fine to develop powerful characters for the sake of developing powerful characters. Sometimes one dimensional bloodshed can be entertaining. [disturbed]

I don't think anyone played Duke Nukem for its writing (although I'm ignoring his quips).

Quote: they're still entertaining and important to us. Hollywood remake old stories all the time.

I just said that. The stories are still important to us, but we wouldn't write many original stories like them anymore. Even medieval RPGs don't seem to carry their feel much. I don't think they are modern at all, they are just fond memories recreated with modern techniques.

Quote: The bear is never referenced prior to this occurrence. Of course you would have to read the play to appreciate its story.

That doesn't really tell me anything, so I'll read the play if I get the time to see if I get what you mean.

Quote: These stories are still modern

Should I use tables for my website content instead of CSS? It's important for a lot of web designers, so it should still be modern, right? Our standards evolve for a reason. (Although I admit I'm not fond of how fast they move these days. [smile])

EDIT: Removed Duke Nukem quote rebuttal. Not interested in bickering.

[Edited by - zyrolasting on December 12, 2009 6:14:09 PM]

Quote: Original post by zyrolasting
I just said that. The stories are still important to us, but we wouldn't write many original stories like them anymore. Even medieval RPGs don't seem to carry their feel much. I don't think they are modern at all, they are just fond memories recreated with modern techniques.

Sorry, the point about originality wasn't clear to me. I would disagree that the techniques of old literature are dead curios. I've demonstrated that Shakespeare employed devices of previous millennia while still being original.

Edit I: I understand now that explaining the concept isn't going to convince you, without referencing a post-post-modern example. This was my failing. But this task is more difficult as I don't have contemporary stories fresh in my mind. I'll get back to this one.

Edit II: Okay, back again. I'll look at the story from Wall-E as an arbitrary contemporary example. But first a clear definition of deus ex machina:

Quote: Deus ex machina is a plot device in which a person or thing appears "out of the blue" to help a character to overcome a seemingly insolvable difficulty. Alternatively a person or object may have a property not revealed before.

There's a scene in Wall-E where he gets ejected into space to be detonated inside an escape pod. At this point it's illogical that he should have any way to escape his fate. But he uses a fire extinguisher to escape the pod and propel himself back to EVE and the ship.

It's illogical for fire extinguishers to propel machines. It may be that futuristic technology allows for this, but this property wasn't revealed before Wall-E gets ejected. It comes out of the blue.

And it benefits the story.

Quote: Should I use tables for my website content instead of CSS? It's important for a lot of web designers, so it should still be modern, right? Our standards evolve for a reason. (Although I admit I'm not fond of how fast they move these days. [smile])

Tables are no longer important or entertaining to anyone, they're of marginal historical significance. Literary devices are not analogous to web technology.

Quote: Implied that right in the quote box you used for that statement.

Then we're in agreement. Powerful one dimensional characters don't make for good writing.

[Edited by - abstractionline on December 12, 2009 9:43:36 PM]

Quote: It's illogical for fire extinguishers to propel machines. It may be that futuristic technology allows for this, but this property wasn't revealed prior to it coming into action. It comes out of the blue. And it benefits the story.

Allow me to remind you of the contexts in which I do not approve of DEM. Ancient plays would introduce god-like characters to abruptly end plays if say, the actors were being rained out. I apologize for jumping the gun and saying that DEM is always sinful, that was my fault. I consider that applications of it that go to extremes that damage the feel of the story alienates me, especially if it was planned. It's one thing to use it to wrap up interrupted plays, and another to think to oneself: "Maybe I'll make Chuck Norris save everyone at the last minute." Take that old man and hero pseudo-script I posted earlier as well. Sorry for not clarifying my tolerance. If you still feel I missed the point, I probably did and sorry about that, too. We are really at what our tastes are at this point.

I don't really feel your example was much of a DEM, though. It makes sense for safety equipment to be available in multiple locations, (especially in a space station) and Wall-E made a very hasty maneuver that is among the lines of what a panicking cute character might do. Take Newton's first law and the fact Wall-E was hollow and therefore lighter than you might think, and I can see that the extinguisher would save him in the first place. Seems well planned to me.

Quote: Tables are no longer important or entertaining to anyone, they're of marginal historical significance. Literary devices are not analogous to web technology.

I was jumping around a bit, but what I'm trying to get across is that fables aren't modern. Modern means "of the current era". We are past the era of the stories mentioned before. Surely you've noticed this!
I just see the fables as something to remember now and again as well as influences. But modern?

Quote: Then we're in agreement. Powerful one dimensional characters don't make for good writing.

Right. I'm tempted to correct you on the design bit, but the thread isn't about that. Let's drop this now.

Yeah, I'm gonna have a few characters all with different abilities and strengths and weaknesses. I can think of a few examples of good game stories and I would say that just about any Bioware title, The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, and the Metroid Prime trilogy have the best stories I've seen so far. The interesting thing though is that... by the end of the game, Samus is DEFINITELY overpowered. But it still is a good interesting story.

Quote: by the end of the game, Samus is DEFINITELY overpowered. But it still is a good interesting story.

I'm going to surrender to my temptation to mention design here. Metroid always had this slowly growing feeling of accomplishment as you made Samus stronger and stronger. The enemies you face later are still challenging as long as you keep to normal or higher difficulties.

I feel Metroid was very good about keeping plot details in the dark unless you look for them. By immersing me in the dark, surreal worlds of the games, I felt a deeper connection with the game and Samus. When Corruption came out that silence and atmosphere that made me love Metroid started to die. Inconsistency after a long series of similar games is my Kryptonite. What made Samus a great character was the fact she was a silent protagonist with an air of certainty around her. When characters started getting stuffed in in Corruption or when she spoke in the trailer of Other M, my heart sank as I started to realize she's just the next sci-fi cyberpunk now.

Do not make a series of games that do so well and decide that a strict pattern should break. I want to see something new, but I wish some developers would be more conservative to the mood of their games. Writing isn't everything in a game.

Metroid brings up a problem that may count as cheesy. Every time I got a new tool I had places to use it and I rarely if ever found places to use a new tool before I got to it. On top of that, doors were always locked with the most recent tool and older ones stopped being used. For instance, you never have to shoot rockets to blow something up much after the early game. You only use the magnetic rails in certain areas, etc. Overall it just can across as very contrived. That was also in large part due to a second problem. Everything and I mean everything was made for Samus to use. The ball tunnels are always the perfect size. The tools always fit. Nothing else uses these ways of getting around besides Samus. Maybe it would be better if I saw the lizards swinging in on the zip lines or the tunnels were carved out by other critters. Half the time the tunnels were actually constructed and not just carved into rock as the setting was on a space ship. Now why would space pirates make a Samus sized tunnel on their ship?


Don't make everything about the player. He is most important, but he is not the only character. For a world to feel right, it has to feel like it could exist without the player.