Matrix, fundamentally, I agree w/ you. This was sort of a loaded question (part of my LF tecnique ) to prove a point: Genres dictate way too much about what we as developers do and think. They give us a pre-conceived notion of what a game will be just by thinking of a particular genre.


Edited by - Nazrix on October 22, 2000 9:05:08 PM

To me, an RPG no longer means story or role or anything of such. It is the way that the characters in the game are portrayed. I think the idea ''RPG'' should be scrapped and we could have CG (Characterisation games), EIG (Emotionally Involving Games), PUVG (Pointless Unprovoked Violenve Games). With these three I am sure that you can come up with some fairly strange mixtures. You may have EIG with or without it being a CG (I am not sure how - yet -, but it may not have to be a CG). You could have a PUVG with CG and possibly EIG, or just a PUVG (Diablo, it is so often WRONGLY classed as an RPG that it almost fits in this discussion).

Comments?

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

Yes, RPG has totally lost meaning.

That''s a pretty good start on genres though, dwarf.

I''m tired of genres altogether though.

I think when you create a game where people are not sure what genre to place it in, you''ve made a pretty original game...not nessessarily a good game but original at least.

Like Thief. It''s not really an FPS as we know it...although it is 1st person...


""You see... I'm not crazy... you see?!? Nazrix believes me!" --Wavinator

"All you touch and all you see, is all your life will ever be." -Pink Floyd

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Mine are not Genres as such but more of attributes. Instead of grouping games into specific genres, just point out their attributes. This way you can have games that are cross genre that still maintain an identifiable attribute. With attributes, they can be combined with other attributes to create different games. It would also help people understand what kind of a game they are getting into and if it is going to be worth their money. That is how I would like the new ratings system to work.

Any suggestions on other attributes? (Other than obvious FP and TP - First and Third Person respectively)

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

Interesting approach, but usually the major features are listed on the game's website or box anyway.

I think at least as developers it is limiting to have general attributes to pick and choose from to create an array of different aspects. I think if we have names for different attributes, then it limits us (even if it's just a little) to thinking we're limited to those attributes.

I think instead we should just try to achieve a certain emotion or feeling or whatever that the game will convey and bring everything to that.

(it's wierd...all these Landfish concepts are coming back to me with more meaning now )



""You see... I'm not crazy... you see?!? Nazrix believes me!" --Wavinator

"All you touch and all you see, is all your life will ever be." -Pink Floyd

Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.


Edited by - Nazrix on October 22, 2000 9:58:13 PM

I guess that you are right, being that it is for the reviewers to inform the gamers what to expect in a game. I can''t see the genres getting abolished though, because otherwise you have pointless killing of the current FPS listed along with Might and Magic and the like. It isn''t right and I can''t see any other way of keeping the attributes open. I think the attributes are as close as is possible to get at the moment with describing a game while keeping it generic.

Anyway - RPG''s don''t need a story, they just need gameplay and characterisation IMO.

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

Okay. Some people may shoot me for saying this, but this is how I approach the whole "genres" issue:

1.) If the game has a story, it is, in essence, an RPG. I came to this conclusion by drawing on the fact that if you partake in the story, you are playing a ROLE, as the genres name describes. "Role Playing Game." Now the game can be further classified as a FPS or a RTS or whatever, depending on the way the gameplay is set up. Some of these genres overlap in meaning, I believe.

2.) If the game has no story, I would just call it a simulation. Since you aren''t playing a role in some story, you would just be SIMULATING some action or sequence of actions. Like RPGs, these can come in all flavors also.

3.) Of course you could have RPGs in the form of a simulation game as well. I hope you are still with me, because I''m starting to really confuse myself

So to answer the original question, yes, I believe RPGs MUST, by definition, have a storyline. I have to argue with landfish that you can have a role without a story. Roles are dependant on stories, not the other way around. Well, feel free to tear my little theories apart. (=

yeah, you''re right dwarfsoft. Genres won''t go away in any artistic medium. I just had to vent.

Attributes are better at least...

Although, just because the game community as a whole won''t give up genres, it doesn''t mean that we can''t give them up in our little social circle



""You see... I'm not crazy... you see?!? Nazrix believes me!" --Wavinator

"All you touch and all you see, is all your life will ever be." -Pink Floyd

Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

spyder,
you just proved one of my main points. Our definitions of RPGs are subjective. Each person has their own categories, so genres are limiting and pointless. The least we can do is forget about genres at the time of making a game, then let the public call your game whatever they choose...just so long as your game is good of course


""You see... I'm not crazy... you see?!? Nazrix believes me!" --Wavinator

"All you touch and all you see, is all your life will ever be." -Pink Floyd

Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

sypher7 - According to you, recently, I have been playing an absolutely brilliant RPG recently where I basically have to save the world from these freaky germans. My role is a POW and I break out of my cell, get weapons and basically kill any Nazis that come around the corner. It is an absolutly brilliant game, you may have heard of it: Wolfenstein3D!

Seriously - This game is not an RPG. If it was, then most games are classed as an RPG.

If we now take the role of a commander in ''Command and Conquer'' then we are also in RPG according to you. But what genre does Final Fantasy and Might and Magic come under? They are not FPS or RTS. So you are saying that the genre that is currently defining these games also include other games (the FPS and the RTS) but then branches into three sections, the three sections that you just brought together. It seems simpler if you leave FPS, RTS and RPG seperate. It makes no difference.

It is all to our own opinions, but that opinion didn''t really make much sense.

Naz - yeah.... f*** the genres.... I am going for attributes until we can find something better. Do we have to worry about the different degrees of attributes in the game. I am also wondering how we guage Depth of a game and how you can determine the details of the game

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche