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Must RPGs have a story?

Nazrix · 2000-11-01T19:30:59

Why is it almost everyone would say an RPG _must_ have a story to be an RPG, where an FPS does not have to have a story to be an FPS? People always compare the RPG experience to being like reading a book. Why must this be so? If you want an RPG to be like a book, you can read a book. You don't even to deal w/ the stupid battles impeding the precious narrative. I'm not even really talking about interactivity vs. linearity. I'm more talking about why _must_ RPGs contain a heavy overwhelming narrative that dictates what's happening? PnP RPGs (wouldn't this be where the term RPG was first coined? I may be wrong.) did have a history of the world and so on, but when it came to the actual player's experiencing the game I don't think many DMs had a sequential narrative laid out. If Quake had absolutely no story (meaning narrative) people would not notice, and people would still like it. Yes, I am using the tactic of the elusive Landfish. I just think this all has to do w/ our pre-conceived notions on what an RPG is. ""You see... I'm not crazy... you see?!? Nazrix believes me!" --Wavinator "All you touch and all you see, is all your life will ever be." -Pink Floyd Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself. Edited by - Nazrix on 10/22/00 6:23:05 PM

Writing for Games Game Design

Started by Nazrix October 22, 2000 06:09 PM

94 comments, last by Nazrix 23 years, 8 months ago

Wavinator

2,020

October 24, 2000 06:12 PM

[mazes/levels (so do Doom, Super Mario Bros, and the default OpenGL screensaver in Windows). And (worst of all, I think the main point of this debate) it takes place in a medieval setting (like many other wrongly-classified medieval-setting-based games).

Your refutations cite __SOME__ criteria that other games have. I haven''t seen another genre that has all the features I mentioned. (Oh, and I don''t buy the fantasy setting... as for me, that''s NOT a prerequisite!!!)

quote:
Really, looking at any game''s main concentration of activity (in Diablo''s case, endless killing) is the best way to define a game, if such a thing is necessary (making Diablo an action game).

So you do go in for hybrid definitions, eh? Action / comedy? (Lethal Weapon) Action / horror? (Aliens) Comedy / horror (Scream).

quote:
My main concern, with any game called a roleplaying game, is that that genre is used as a catch-all for anything that looks medieval-based.

For a person who''s looking for more friggin'' non-medieval RPGs, I agree!!!! And yes, too many for my tastes become tactical strategy games.

quote:
I still argue that a RPG, in its truest nature, must have character development (preferably active, rather than so many games'' passive) beyond stats and skills (in other words, persona development).

While I don''t agree this is the sole defining point, I do agree this element should be __MAJOR__ to get the RPG seal of approval.

--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...

Wavinator

2,020

October 24, 2000 06:19 PM

quote]Original post by MatrixCubed

Can you really define anything by looking at its individual parts, and classifying it by concentrating on any of its features, or a small group of its features so that it pigeonholes into a neatly-defined package? Take, for example, the indomitable Diablo. It lets you buy stuff for inventories (so do some first-person shooters). It lets you kill sentient (and non-sentient) beings en masse (so do Warcraft, SimCity, and any Ultima. It allows you to explore

quote: Original post by dwarfsoft

Matrix - You say that breaking down into little attributes wont help organise into different genres (or that is how I interpreted it) but we don''t want genres. We want to be able to look at a game and say ''Oh! It has Characterisation with a of Interaction''.

Truth in advertising.

That would be cool, but I''m not sure it''s practical w/o a review style explaination.

Here''s what I mean: Do you rent videos? Do you ever find yourself in the mood for a good laugh, or cathartic violence, or deep intrigue? Isn''t it great to be able to go into a general section and find what you''re in the mood for?

Genres, when the label is right, give you the ability to find what you want quickly. This is a customer convenience, rather than an artistic tool.

--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...

Nazrix

307

Author

October 24, 2000 06:21 PM

If you think about it the genre of RPG (games), Alternative (Music), Drama (Movies) all have one thing in common: They''re sort of a genre where if it doesn''t belong in the other categories it gets thrown in there.

Also, movies that are hard to put into a single genre tend to be a lot deeper, and a lot more original (Pulp Fiction, Usual Suspects, Fight Club)....same thing goes for games IMO.

The point is people who don''t let the concept of genre overwhelm them, are more likely to allow themselves to just make a good game and to hell what genre others throw it in.

""You see... I'm not crazy... you see?!? Nazrix believes me!" --Wavinator

"All you touch and all you see, is all your life will ever be." -Pink Floyd

Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself. "Just don't look at the hole." -- Unspoken_Magi

Nazrix

307

Author

October 24, 2000 06:25 PM

quote: Original post by Wavinator
Isn't it great to be able to go into a general section and find what you're in the mood for?
--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

Nope. I really don't do that. I'm not just saying that 'cause it's convenient. I use the gift of literacy and read the back of the movie to see if it sounds interesting. That combined w/ what actors are in it (I'll admit that is a little prejudging but better than using genres), and what I'd heard of it sometimes.

My point is not to debate the use of genres. The public is going to use genres...it's inevidible. I am not even going to try to dispute that fact. The publishers are going to use them. The people who buy game will use them. All I am saying is that when generating your own ideas for games, don't think in terms of genres. They are limiting.

The point is: as developers, we should not think about our _own_ games in terms of what genre it will fit in. That's the job of the guys with suits.

""You see... I'm not crazy... you see?!? Nazrix believes me!" --Wavinator

"All you touch and all you see, is all your life will ever be." -Pink Floyd

Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

Edited by - Nazrix on October 24, 2000 8:11:46 PM

Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself. "Just don't look at the hole." -- Unspoken_Magi

Wavinator

2,020

October 24, 2000 07:46 PM

quote: Original post by Nazrix

Nope. I really don''t do that. I''m not just saying that ''cause it''s convenient. I use the gift of literacy and read the back of the movie to see if it sounds interesting.

Grrrrrrrr....!!! I know that part!

I meant that in terms of WHAT isle you went to. Once there, you''d read the back! (Now imagine if they were all randomly distributed!)

quote:
The point is: as developers, we should not think about our _own_ games in terms of what genre it will fit in. That''s the job of the guys with suits.

Okay, we agree!!!!

I just find that in trying to talk with you guys, I have a choice. Either I say...

"I''m working on a real-time character game where you buy and upgrade a ship, manage a crew, and fight, trade and explore in a dynamically changing, randomly generated cosmos"

-OR-

I say, "Guys, I''m working on a SF RPG."

--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...

Nazrix

307

Author

October 24, 2000 07:53 PM

quote: Original post by Wavinator

Grrrrrrrr....!!! I know that part! I meant that in terms of WHAT isle you went to. Once there, you'd read the back! (Now imagine if they were all randomly distributed!)

I usually end up checking out the new releases first, but that's not a genre that is just a representation of how long the movie's been around

quote:
Okay, we agree!!!! I just find that in trying to talk with you guys, I have a choice. Either I say...

"I'm working on a real-time character game where you buy and upgrade a ship, manage a crew, and fight, trade and explore in a dynamically changing, randomly generated cosmos"

-OR-

I say, "Guys, I'm working on a SF RPG."

Yes, I suppose I'm not talking about when you speak of your game to others. At that point using genres is not so bad. I'm more speaking of the internal thought process. When you think to yourself of aspects of your game, we shouldn't think as designers "I will take a little of an RPG and throw in a little twist here and there". The concept of RPG is not clearly defined and merely limits our creativity when making in the process of designing.

""You see... I'm not crazy... you see?!? Nazrix believes me!" --Wavinator

"Though the course may change someimes the rivers always reach the sea" --Led Zeppelin

Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

Edited by - Nazrix on October 24, 2000 8:54:57 PM

Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself. "Just don't look at the hole." -- Unspoken_Magi

Wavinator

2,020

October 24, 2000 08:05 PM

quote: Original post by Nazrix

Yes, I suppose I''m not talking about when you speak of your game to others. At that point using genres is not so bad. I''m more speaking of the internal thought process. When you think to yourself of aspects of your game, we shouldn''t think as designers "I will take a little of an RPG and throw in a little twist here and there". The concept of RPG is not clearly defined and merely limits our creativity when making in the process of designing.

Again, I completely agree! I found myself about a year ago tending toward genre thinking while designing, and had a lot of problems. I''d think, "the design really calls for X, but RPGs don''t have X. Do I toss X? I can''t toss X, X is cool!!!!"

Finally, I said to hell with it, and decided to sculpt the design into what it felt it should be, not what applied to a label. Now, for good or ill, it''s free to become whatever it may.

--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...

Nazrix

307

Author

October 24, 2000 08:41 PM

okay, Wav, I knew you probably knew what I was saying but I was making sure

I know it's not a knew concept, and LF has talked of it before. I just thought I'd mention it again. So far, less people seem to hate me, so maybe people (of course I don't mean people like you Wav..just the ignorant flamers) will listen w/out blindly dispising it

j/k

""You see... I'm not crazy... you see?!? Nazrix believes me!" --Wavinator

"Though the course may change someimes the rivers always reach the sea" --Led Zeppelin

Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

Edited by - Nazrix on October 24, 2000 9:57:58 PM

Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself. "Just don't look at the hole." -- Unspoken_Magi

dwarfsoft

1,237

October 24, 2000 10:25 PM

We should just start up a discussion group ''What does LF think'' and basically make replies as we are less likely to get flamed for it. Maybe LF could even mail his thoughts to some of the regulars and get them to post for him. That oughto really freak people out

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche

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Nazrix

307

Author

October 24, 2000 11:44 PM

hehe yeah that just might work

""You see... I'm not crazy... you see?!? Nazrix believes me!" --Wavinator

"Though the course may change someimes the rivers always reach the sea" --Led Zeppelin

Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself. "Just don't look at the hole." -- Unspoken_Magi

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Must RPGs have a story?

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Must RPGs have a story?

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