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Must RPGs have a story?

Started by
94 comments, last by Nazrix 23 years, 8 months ago
Yeah the more I post in this thread the more I learn things as I go along. I''m realizing a lot of things LF was saying a long time ago, but I see it much clearer now.


"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd

"Though the course may change sometimes, the rivers always reach the sea" --Led Zeppelin

Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself. "Just don't look at the hole." -- Unspoken_Magi
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I''m sorry I didn''t make it clear in the first post: I really do agree with you guys.

A genre is a term used by the general public to refer to a catagory of games. RTS, as far as most people are concerned, means units and armies. I make no comment at this time as to whether this is good or bad.

I was mainly responding to those who said that any game could be argued as being RPG, trying to clarify what it would mean to ''play a role''.

Several billion trillion tons of superhot exploding hydrogen nuclei rose slowly above the horizon and managed to look small, cold and slightly damp.-The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams
Forneiq,
Sorry I jumped on you, but you proved my point so well

I don't mind the consumers (and that includes game developers when they are buying other people's games) having preconceived ideas upon what a genre is as much as I think when we are in the process of making a game we should keep our minds as open as humanly possible just for creativity's sake. I mean, I think that our minds should be quite open in general but I'm just talking about game development for now

My point in saying just about any game could be considered playing a role was to prove that RPG doesn't mean anything, and it hinders our creativity as developers. Outside of speaking in terms of game development, I'd basically agree w/ you. I think it's okay to seperate yourself between a player of games and a creator of games. Different rules can apply to each.



"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd

"Though the course may change sometimes, the rivers always reach the sea" --Led Zeppelin

Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.


Edited by - Nazrix on October 26, 2000 8:10:00 PM
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself. "Just don't look at the hole." -- Unspoken_Magi
OK, I am starting up a new topic "Game Attributes (RPG-like)" that will give everyone a chance to pic elements that they want in a game (not necessarily RPG-like though) that would entertain them and would get their votes. This also includes elements that could help to categorize and cross categorize their games

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          
Sorry folks...I missed the boat on this one...I''ve only been on this form for a week or two now and only seem to have read post after post of arguments over what an RPG is ...

I agree with the idea of keeping an open mind so as to foster creativity...but creativity can also come from an restrictive enviroment as well...take the film "The Blair Witch Project" for example...they didn''t have a hollywood size budget to make it, nor A-list actors/actress...they didn''t even have conventional camera equipment...but they still stayed within the horror film genre and managed to do pretty well in the process [wether you thought the film good/bad is beside the point]...they scared quite a few people without really showing much of anything [as the budget wouldn''t allow much in the way of special effects]...point is they did this under some pretty extream restrictions, which forced them to be much more creative... just want you to keep that in mind
That's okay MSW, it's hard to follow what people mean on the limited communication medium of a message board

I didn't want to talk about what an RPG is because it's subjective and futile. I just wanted to make the point that thinking in terms of genres is limiting, and I think I made the point

As long as we all learn something...that's what matters.


"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd

"Though the course may change sometimes, the rivers always reach the sea" --Led Zeppelin

Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.


Edited by - Nazrix on October 27, 2000 1:29:54 AM
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself. "Just don't look at the hole." -- Unspoken_Magi
So let''s hit the topic from the other direction, now that we are thinking freely. If you build a CRPG, or something close enough to start flame wars about it''s RPG-ness,and you did not have a story, then what are the implications?

1) You need a conclusion to the game. How else does the player know when the game is over? Fully open-ended is not a game, it''s a simulation. Which is an option, but for the moment let''s say we are building a game.

In order for the game to end, you could have a time limit - the life of the character (generally too long to be practical); you could have a separate goal not related to a story (earn 1 million gold and retire).

2) Something to motivate the player. If the victory condition can be achieved by simple repeated action then the player has no motivation to explore other opportunities. Taking the gold example, if they figure out they can earn 6 gold per hour by hunting rats near the starting point of the game then the only motivation they have to explore other parts of the game is boredom or curiosity. So we need a way to push the player to do more.

3) Conflict. Stories write out a nice conflict for the character to face. Usually a simple good vs evil theme these days. I''m sticking with the simple man vs man style found in most RPGs. Man vs himself is nice, but requires the game designer to dictate some of how the game character behaves, so infringes on the player control.

In order to generate conflict you either need competition for limited resources (or the illusion thereof), some sort of direct opposition / personal feud, or ... ?

No character exists in a vaccuum, they have a bit of a backstory like the rest of the world. But if we avoid dictating the player''s conflicts in the back story and focus on the player''s actions after creation then we have to create conflict by forcing the player to take some action that hinders or compromises an NPC (might be an evil NPC, or a monster) in order to reach the game''s goal.

So before the game has even begun, we have to have NPCs with goals, some of whom will directly compete with the player''s goals. More precisely, we need NPCs to conflict with the player NO MATTER WHICH ACTION THE PLAYER TAKES TO GET TOWARDS THE GOAL. These of course might be different NPCs.

Hmm. This is getting interesting.

It sounds like some solid world-building would be required. And some excellent NPC character writing.

4) No plot points means that some players won''t get a fixed pre-scripted message or a certain key. There need to be other options. Indeed, most pen and paper GMs allow players to come up with creative solutions to existing hurdles. That is not to say get rid of keys or sealed off areas, but the game cannot stop because the player can''t get to that area, and there ought to be multiple ways past the gate, in case the player has accomplished some action that makes it unlikely or even impossible to get the right key. This doesn''t mean the alternates have to be easy, though.

What else?
(Who said Landfish never contributes with any of his own ideas )

This could potentially work w/ the collecting so many gold pieces or collecting so many treasures as long as there are many different ways to attain the treasure (which is what you were probably saying anyway).

There was a text-based adventure game called Zyll I used to love. It had a story in the sense of in the beginning it explained why you're there and what you had to do. You had to collect 4 of the many treasure and the black orb to return home. It relied on exploration mostly, but different classes had different advantages, so the experience was quite different depedning upon class.

So there was no narrative in the sense that the story grew as you played and you found out more about it. Although, it still had a setup, conflict, and resolution, so LF may consider it a story. I'm talking more of narrative I suppose. It was fairly open-ended. You could explorer whatever parts in whatever order.

So, if you went straight for the goal of collecting the treasures (assuming you knew where they were and I did after playing the game 3,000 times a day) the game could end rather fast where if you explored other parts of the game it could take quite a long time and allow you many interesting experiences.




"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd

"Though the course may change sometimes, the rivers always reach the sea" --Led Zeppelin

Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.


Edited by - Nazrix on October 27, 2000 12:48:41 PM
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself. "Just don't look at the hole." -- Unspoken_Magi
quote: Original post by Nazrix

S&S, that''s really not our point. We are aware that genres are inevidible in every medium. Our point is that internally, when we developers are thinking about the design for our games we should not think in terms of genres because it limits us. If you set out to make an RPG for instance we all have preconceived ideas of what the game must include as soon as we decide upon making an RPG. So, it blurs our design creativity by having these preconeived notions about what a genre must include.

See? I''m not talking so much about speaking of genres to other people or speaking of genres that other games fit in. That''s useless and often subjective. I''m talking about our internal ideas from a developer perspective. We must think in terms of what fits in our games and let the public put it in whatever genre they see fit.


Ah, I see. That''s an interesting thought. My development process doesn''t work in such a way that genre terms could interfere with creativity, but I can see how that might be a problem for someone.

I want to help design a "sandpark" MMO. Optional interactive story with quests and deeply characterized NPCs, plus sandbox elements like player-craftable housing and lots of other crafting. If you are starting a design of this type, please PM me. I also love pet-breeding games.

I think that now we each understand one another. Creativity can be hampered while trying to stick firmly in one subject. I have always suffered for not being creative and stepping outside the bounds of the genres [or the octahedron ]. A good example of working cross-genre (well, within a commonish genre) is Dune. By all standards it is a Fantasy novel, though it is set in the Sci-fi universe. This is a good example and I would like to make a dune inspired game (no, I don''t want dune, I want a cross-genre game where the ''cross-genre'' part was inspired by dune). Star wars was another fantasy and sci-fi hybrid, though I don''t think that it had as good a story...

I want games to take the steps into cross-genre for sure in a definitive step. No more holding back or scraping at the edges, let us go head first into a new era of gaming where freedom of thought advances everyones enjoyment and understanding. This is what we need and we shall have it if we all understand that the limitations that are applied to us are applied by ourselves. We need not be hindered by such limitations any longer as we are now aware that we can do better without them...

Enough ranting

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

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