AP, I think in any industry you have to do what is financially feasible in order to survive. That''s the nature of business and capitalism. If we lived in a communist state, or maybe even if game creation fell under some kind of government funding for the arts program, we''d see people taking more risks. But, that''s not to say people with non sci-fi/fantasy backgrounds don''t have something to offer.
At some point we''ll hit a critical mass and the tools allowing the masses to make commercially viable titles (by commercially viable, I mean of a certain quality) will be there, so that people like you will be able to use your particular storytelling skills and preferences to make something entirely new. In some ways, this possibility already exists, albeit in the mod community.
If we take the director/writer as game designer analogy further, I would hazard to say that Chris Nolan (who wrote Memento) would make an interesting game designer. He does cool stuff with temporal shifts that allow him to tell truly amazing stories.
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Rich Carlson talks about game writing/writers
quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
Carlson''s heart was in the right place with his article, but his narrowmindedness towards the literary implementation in videogames prevents me from standing up and applauding his remarks.
...
From this fellow''s point of view, if a game writer''s works do not virtually mimic the style of moldy old sci-fi and fantasy writers, then their game will be utter shit. As a writer, this has offended me.
His implication is that writers should be introduced into the industry to a heightened degree, but only if they follow HIS guidelines. If they display a remarkable degree of unoriginality and base their literary forms on outside sources, rather than make their own style.
...
We need ORIGINAL writers with NEW ideas in the game industry. Not writers who copy their styles directly from others, which is what he is limiting the notion of "writer" to.
Are you claiming that it''s unimportant for someone to study their craft before producing it themselves? Even the most surreal artists learned how to draw ''normally'' first by studying along with the others. Better to learn from the masters and base your originality on their quality, than to stay ignorant in the hope that it will somehow make you more original. (When in fact you will probably just sound like every other writer who isn''t well-read.)
Note that I don''t necessarily agree with his choices for good writers. However, I think he was naming sci-fi and fantasy authors as the bare minimum you should read to write for games of that genre, rather than citing them as examples of writing superiority overall.
I''m sure I had a similar argument with an anon. poster a few weeks back... are you the same guy?
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I am not claiming for a moment that it is unimportant for writers to ignore studying the masters of the respective genres. I''m simply labeling Carlson narrowminded for telling us which masters we should be studying. Who is to say that Tolkien is better to study than Lord Byron was? Or Bradbury is more enlightening than Thurber(just to throw out a great story teller''s name).
My post was illustrating my disgust that current game developers HAVE to have it their way, or it won''t be done at all. I agree with Tacit that Nolan, maker of Memento, would probably make a great gamemaker because he is a great story teller. Yet, Carlson''s words completely scratch out the possibility of that.
We may have discussed something before. I was on here raving about the values of originality in writing.
My post was illustrating my disgust that current game developers HAVE to have it their way, or it won''t be done at all. I agree with Tacit that Nolan, maker of Memento, would probably make a great gamemaker because he is a great story teller. Yet, Carlson''s words completely scratch out the possibility of that.
We may have discussed something before. I was on here raving about the values of originality in writing.
Author
Well, some game designers are turning to less conventional literary sources for their inspiration. The French game developers seem to be ahead of NA in this regard; they have a fair number of their own fantastic and sci-fi authors from which to derive potential settings and stories. I think what is seen as lack of originality is sometimes actually a lack of diversity. There is a wealth of literary material that could be interesting for games, but hasn''t been touched upon yet. For example, Jules Verne, H.G. Wells, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, etc.
I don''t think you''d be able to convince people that playing a game based on Byron''s works would be fun. You can''t even convince people to read his poetry. Which, I believe, is a key issue here -- that it doesn''t make sense to make a game based on some obscure writer or genre that nobody enjoys. You just end up with a game that''s not financial viable, unless you can keep your costs really low and sell it through alternative channels (oneline, shareware, etc.). And there''s nothing wrong with this! In fact, I believe this is the direction the industry is going.
Recently, I''ve seen an increasing diversity in the literary sources being used for games. One game in particular that impresses me is ''Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth''. It is, obviously, based on some of H.P. Lovecraft''s works, and from what I can tell they''re not just using his stuff as a veneer for a lame FPS. They''re actually taking advantage of the fact that Lovecraft''s protagonists are atypical heroes, and in the game you will be able to experience the affects of slowly going insane from the horrors you witness (this is a popular Lovecraftian theme). Anyways, I believe we''ll see more and more of this type of thing.
I don''t think you''d be able to convince people that playing a game based on Byron''s works would be fun. You can''t even convince people to read his poetry. Which, I believe, is a key issue here -- that it doesn''t make sense to make a game based on some obscure writer or genre that nobody enjoys. You just end up with a game that''s not financial viable, unless you can keep your costs really low and sell it through alternative channels (oneline, shareware, etc.). And there''s nothing wrong with this! In fact, I believe this is the direction the industry is going.
Recently, I''ve seen an increasing diversity in the literary sources being used for games. One game in particular that impresses me is ''Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth''. It is, obviously, based on some of H.P. Lovecraft''s works, and from what I can tell they''re not just using his stuff as a veneer for a lame FPS. They''re actually taking advantage of the fact that Lovecraft''s protagonists are atypical heroes, and in the game you will be able to experience the affects of slowly going insane from the horrors you witness (this is a popular Lovecraftian theme). Anyways, I believe we''ll see more and more of this type of thing.
I once heard an interview with Tom Scholz - the leader of the band ''Boston''. When he was asked what other artists he listened to and enjoyed, he responded that he NEVER listens to anything other than his own work. When that particular quote was replayed on the radio station here, it was jokingly pointed out that perhaps we had discovered the reason why all of the Boston music has sounded the same since their first album.
Just thought it would be relevant to the discussion.
Dave Mark
Intrinsic Algorithm Development
"Reducing the world to mathematical equations!"
Just thought it would be relevant to the discussion.
Dave Mark
Intrinsic Algorithm Development
"Reducing the world to mathematical equations!"
I agree with you Tacit. I speak more of ideals than reality at times. I should keep our good friend Karl Marx in mind when posting. Ideals merely make you a grumpy old man prematurely.
I believe that it''s quite possible to utilize more out-dated sources of inspiration as long as the writer puts a contemporary spin on it. For instance, Lord Byron''s material would be great for a game as long as the writer translated it in a way our audience can appreciate it. I''m a big fan of British literature like the Romantic Age and the Victorian Era, but the biggest boundary between the contemporary audience and the writers is the literary form and general feel. The concepts and the emotions put forth are still very real today, but, for the most part, unused. A great example of this is the writer Robert Burns, writer of Aud Lang Syne(probably spelled wrong!). Nobody knows what the hell he''s saying most of the time, but he is, at the core, a brilliant, emotional writer. I''m not saying that Burns'' works in particular would make any sense in a game setting, but similar works would be a great source of inspiration as long as the writer can make a rather distant connection. I''d pee my pants and quit smoking if I saw writers who did that well.
Unfortunately, such degree of literary experimentation would NOT be explored by big game companies. Hell, most film companies wouldn''t go out on a limb that financially flimsy. I can understand that, though. These companies don''t WANT to go out of business.
That''s why I''d like to see a larger emphasis placed on independent gaming. An emphasis similar to the film industry. Where you can sell your comic book collection and make the game of the year, even though the sales wouldn''t indicate it. Fortunately, we may be approaching such a point, if we haven''t already. Somebody made that point before, I forget if it was on here or somebody else. Anyway, the technology is widely available(i.e. garagegames Torque engine) where a bunch of lazy college slackers can band up and make great games without needing to worry about the mainstream circuit. If only we saw a mainstream independent magazine or two that picks up 20-30 games a month, raving about how they add to the diversity of the industry, even though they may not gross a hundred grand.
Actually, such a gaming environment might be approaching quickly, as it seems. I''ve been seeing a lot of sites like this and others where they promote the independent scene. In a few years, who knows, we might actually see all these writers currently crying in their basements(yours truly included in that group) actually making their great games and getting recognized, even though they may not be making much money. Not like that would matter to them. They(hoping they feel the same way as me) just want to get their game made and in the hands of a few people who will love them to death, not for what they look like, but for what they actually are.
THAT is where I would like to see the industry go.
Yes, this was a bit of a rant and probably not the first time such ideas have been pondering on this board, but it was something I felt like remarking on.
I believe that it''s quite possible to utilize more out-dated sources of inspiration as long as the writer puts a contemporary spin on it. For instance, Lord Byron''s material would be great for a game as long as the writer translated it in a way our audience can appreciate it. I''m a big fan of British literature like the Romantic Age and the Victorian Era, but the biggest boundary between the contemporary audience and the writers is the literary form and general feel. The concepts and the emotions put forth are still very real today, but, for the most part, unused. A great example of this is the writer Robert Burns, writer of Aud Lang Syne(probably spelled wrong!). Nobody knows what the hell he''s saying most of the time, but he is, at the core, a brilliant, emotional writer. I''m not saying that Burns'' works in particular would make any sense in a game setting, but similar works would be a great source of inspiration as long as the writer can make a rather distant connection. I''d pee my pants and quit smoking if I saw writers who did that well.
Unfortunately, such degree of literary experimentation would NOT be explored by big game companies. Hell, most film companies wouldn''t go out on a limb that financially flimsy. I can understand that, though. These companies don''t WANT to go out of business.
That''s why I''d like to see a larger emphasis placed on independent gaming. An emphasis similar to the film industry. Where you can sell your comic book collection and make the game of the year, even though the sales wouldn''t indicate it. Fortunately, we may be approaching such a point, if we haven''t already. Somebody made that point before, I forget if it was on here or somebody else. Anyway, the technology is widely available(i.e. garagegames Torque engine) where a bunch of lazy college slackers can band up and make great games without needing to worry about the mainstream circuit. If only we saw a mainstream independent magazine or two that picks up 20-30 games a month, raving about how they add to the diversity of the industry, even though they may not gross a hundred grand.
Actually, such a gaming environment might be approaching quickly, as it seems. I''ve been seeing a lot of sites like this and others where they promote the independent scene. In a few years, who knows, we might actually see all these writers currently crying in their basements(yours truly included in that group) actually making their great games and getting recognized, even though they may not be making much money. Not like that would matter to them. They(hoping they feel the same way as me) just want to get their game made and in the hands of a few people who will love them to death, not for what they look like, but for what they actually are.
THAT is where I would like to see the industry go.
Yes, this was a bit of a rant and probably not the first time such ideas have been pondering on this board, but it was something I felt like remarking on.
Author
I believe it was me who made that statement about the industry moving towards supporting the indie game dev model (even though it''s an unintentional by-product of the evolution of software and hardware).
As for Byron, you''re still not convincing me. But, you could probably make an interesting ''literary'' game based on some of Thomas Hardy''s works, maybe throw in a bit of Joseph Conrad and Robert Louis Stevenson. Robbie Burns would be great if you could understand Scottish dialect...which I''m assuming few people can. Then there''s Shakespeare, and some of the other writers I mentioned. Yes, there is still a lot of fruitful territory for game writers...the trick is finding out how to explore it.
As for Byron, you''re still not convincing me. But, you could probably make an interesting ''literary'' game based on some of Thomas Hardy''s works, maybe throw in a bit of Joseph Conrad and Robert Louis Stevenson. Robbie Burns would be great if you could understand Scottish dialect...which I''m assuming few people can. Then there''s Shakespeare, and some of the other writers I mentioned. Yes, there is still a lot of fruitful territory for game writers...the trick is finding out how to explore it.
Yes, he sounds like an ass. HOWEVER:
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAaaaaaaaaahhhh.
ALL of the above are noted precisely because there is NOTHING moldy about the works of these authors(!) They communicate a pure craft, and pure originality, and pure steaming rip-your-cranium-open QUALITY in every sentence of *just about* every SF work they''ve ever put out. You haven''t read LeGuin, and you haven''t read Bradbury or Ellison, if you can even make that accusation. They might not suit your tastes, but they beat the hell out of Dickinson for a writer working in contemporary and futuristic settings.
I agree that there are other authors throughout history a writer really should study, but SF and fantasy-derived works constitute the vast majority of plot-intensive games out there; that''s because these markets have already been established.
On that note, I agree that an indy movement would be a big help. I''m aware of a couple of hopeful items on this front: there is going to be an experimental gameplay workshop at GDC this year, and the IGF also constitutes an industry-based indy development incentive. In addition, of course, to Mod Madness, since a lot of games now come with the tools to make whole new games gratis.
LeGuin. Bradbury. Ellison. Style does not a writer make, but when it''s couple with craft, it certainly does.
Quick story about Bradbury: His first year writing was basically spent in a room at a typewriter. 2 *million* words. At the end of the year, he took the stack of paper...and burned it. Every sheet. And then he got down to the serious business of writing. Point being, learning the craft doesn''t necessarily entail workshops or writers'' clubs (Ellison in particular detests them) or tons of reading...but having said that, every writer''s magazine I''ve ever read has said that the two hallmarks of a great writer are that 1) he or she writes a lot and 2) he or she reads a lot.
Just to finish up with my desperately obnoxious opinion, the point of the article is getting lost in the details in the last few points. He isn''t talking about deriving games from these works. He''s talking about learning the craft of writing in the first place. If you''re an excellent writer, you can write in the Furry genre (comics: human bodies, animal heads) and you''ll still produce worthwhile material. Read Hepcats if you want dialog that burns with real college angst and Sandman (any Gaiman, really) if you''re interested in how to tell a fairy tale in the modern epoch. Caitlin Kiernan and Catherine Asaro are two of my favourites for all aspects of the craft; Kim Stanley Robinson could teach every working writer a few things about plausible extrapolation. You''re always welcome to find your own sources.
I don''t think you''ll disagree with the basic sentiment: while you''re writing, read. Read widely, read extensively, read in a variety of formats, and read the BEST authors before you read anyone else.
Just my opinion, however obnoxious it may be.
ld
quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
...sci-fi writers like Asimov, Heinlein, Bester, Dick, Pohl, Simak, Bradbury, Niven, Ellison, and Brin*
...fantasy writers like Vance, Tolkein, DeCamp, Zelazny, Lewis, Leiber, LeGuin, Poul Anderson, Moorcock, and Eddings*
...moldy old sci-fi and fantasy writers
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAaaaaaaaaahhhh.
ALL of the above are noted precisely because there is NOTHING moldy about the works of these authors(!) They communicate a pure craft, and pure originality, and pure steaming rip-your-cranium-open QUALITY in every sentence of *just about* every SF work they''ve ever put out. You haven''t read LeGuin, and you haven''t read Bradbury or Ellison, if you can even make that accusation. They might not suit your tastes, but they beat the hell out of Dickinson for a writer working in contemporary and futuristic settings.
I agree that there are other authors throughout history a writer really should study, but SF and fantasy-derived works constitute the vast majority of plot-intensive games out there; that''s because these markets have already been established.
On that note, I agree that an indy movement would be a big help. I''m aware of a couple of hopeful items on this front: there is going to be an experimental gameplay workshop at GDC this year, and the IGF also constitutes an industry-based indy development incentive. In addition, of course, to Mod Madness, since a lot of games now come with the tools to make whole new games gratis.
quote: ...My literary style is unlike any I have ever seen, yet I still persue a career as a writer in the industry.
LeGuin. Bradbury. Ellison. Style does not a writer make, but when it''s couple with craft, it certainly does.
Quick story about Bradbury: His first year writing was basically spent in a room at a typewriter. 2 *million* words. At the end of the year, he took the stack of paper...and burned it. Every sheet. And then he got down to the serious business of writing. Point being, learning the craft doesn''t necessarily entail workshops or writers'' clubs (Ellison in particular detests them) or tons of reading...but having said that, every writer''s magazine I''ve ever read has said that the two hallmarks of a great writer are that 1) he or she writes a lot and 2) he or she reads a lot.
Just to finish up with my desperately obnoxious opinion, the point of the article is getting lost in the details in the last few points. He isn''t talking about deriving games from these works. He''s talking about learning the craft of writing in the first place. If you''re an excellent writer, you can write in the Furry genre (comics: human bodies, animal heads) and you''ll still produce worthwhile material. Read Hepcats if you want dialog that burns with real college angst and Sandman (any Gaiman, really) if you''re interested in how to tell a fairy tale in the modern epoch. Caitlin Kiernan and Catherine Asaro are two of my favourites for all aspects of the craft; Kim Stanley Robinson could teach every working writer a few things about plausible extrapolation. You''re always welcome to find your own sources.
I don''t think you''ll disagree with the basic sentiment: while you''re writing, read. Read widely, read extensively, read in a variety of formats, and read the BEST authors before you read anyone else.
Just my opinion, however obnoxious it may be.
ld
Author
quote: Original post by liquiddark
They might not suit your tastes, but they beat the hell out of Dickinson for a writer working in contemporary and futuristic settings.
...
I don''t think you''ll disagree with the basic sentiment: while you''re writing, read. Read widely, read extensively, read in a variety of formats, and read the BEST authors before you read anyone else.
Which Dickinson are you referring to here, LD?
I completely agree with the second part of this quote. I also think it''s important to stress the value of constantly writing, even if it''s not game-related content. Writing should be something you do every day...
Liquiddark:
Pardon me if I struck a soft spot with my refering to writers such as Bradbury, LeGuin, Ellison, etc as being moldy. I didn''t mean to imply that they were untalented, I simply disagree with Carlson''s assertions. Honestly, I haven''t read encountered the works of more than two of them, yet, by Carlson''s standards, I am entirely unfit for the industry.
Anyway, at this point, I''d ramble about how I diapprove of the overemphasis of reading in order to be a better writer, but it''s late and stepping on toes won''t help anything. I think that a writer is better served writing and constantly thinking about their own work. It''s been my opinion that there''s a point every writer should reach where reading should be a VERY distant second to actually writing.
Tacit:
Perhaps my brain is simply malfunctioning, but I still believe that Byron''s Don Juan would make a fascinating game if intentionally presented as a cliche-ridden RPG. Naturally, some improvisation in terms of plot elements would be in order, but the central premises and overal satirical edge could be duplicated, in my opinion.
I don''t think Burns could be made into a game, though. Not only is his stuff PAINFULLY challenging, but most of his works are on the short side and typically deal with personifying emotions rather than constructing storylines. I''d be quite impressed if somebody could compile it all into something playable.
Pardon me if I struck a soft spot with my refering to writers such as Bradbury, LeGuin, Ellison, etc as being moldy. I didn''t mean to imply that they were untalented, I simply disagree with Carlson''s assertions. Honestly, I haven''t read encountered the works of more than two of them, yet, by Carlson''s standards, I am entirely unfit for the industry.
Anyway, at this point, I''d ramble about how I diapprove of the overemphasis of reading in order to be a better writer, but it''s late and stepping on toes won''t help anything. I think that a writer is better served writing and constantly thinking about their own work. It''s been my opinion that there''s a point every writer should reach where reading should be a VERY distant second to actually writing.
Tacit:
Perhaps my brain is simply malfunctioning, but I still believe that Byron''s Don Juan would make a fascinating game if intentionally presented as a cliche-ridden RPG. Naturally, some improvisation in terms of plot elements would be in order, but the central premises and overal satirical edge could be duplicated, in my opinion.
I don''t think Burns could be made into a game, though. Not only is his stuff PAINFULLY challenging, but most of his works are on the short side and typically deal with personifying emotions rather than constructing storylines. I''d be quite impressed if somebody could compile it all into something playable.
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